[Guy S.]

Not sure if this is the right forum but...

An article in yesterday's Guardian quoted Adrian Smith (the saviour of Mathematics in the curriculum) as saying, "There's a very real perception out there that you are doing virtually twice as much work for your GCSE maths as you are doing for your history". I wonder whether anyone would agree.

Puts me in mind of Charles "I studied Maths and Economics at university" Clarke's comment last year, "I don't mind there being some medievalists around for ornamental purposes, but there is no reason for the state to pay for them."

As a medievalist I would have to say, "Non hastas sed iocis superabimus hostes in silva"! I would be most grateful if anyone could help me see the funny side.

[Stephen Drew]

Well, since Maths has about twice as many lessons per week at GCSE as History I should certainly hope that what has been said was true.

[Guy S.]

Stephen Drew, on Feb 25 2004, 01:35 PM, said:

Well, since Maths has about twice as many lessons per week at GCSE as History I should certainly hope that what has been said was true.

Does this mean that their results should be twice as good as ours?

Not knocking Maths here really, just concerned that since Keith Joseph - of whom I'm no great admirer - nobody seems to have acknowledged the absolutely crucial significance of History as a subject.

In practical terms we are marginalised to make way for GNVQs etc. In philosophical terms society stands to lose its collective consciousness and consequently any moral context by which to understand the world today. If you think about the way things are going - Charles Clarke's inability to appreciate learning for its own sake is an increasingly common failing - it's actually rather depressing!

And don't try to convince me that all the Adam Hart-Davis and Simon Schama programmes ever made could compensate for the fact that pupils are allowed to drop History after Y9.

[gav]

Maths should be optional at GCSE - this would alleviate the recruitment crisis in maths. There should be greater emphasis on numeracy at KS3 - this would be more useful for the future. The skills and knowledge that students would gain from studying History (or even politics and citizenship) would be far more useful than those gained in maths. The problem is that in our country Maths is seen as a traditional subject and traditions are very hard to remove even if they are past their sell-by dates. It makes me angry that out of 25 hours per week the pupils at my school have to spend 13 as a minimum studying just Maths, ICT and Science. It is fundamentally wrong (in my opinion of course) and it also happens to be a fact that these are three of the subjects with the biggest problem in recruiting teachers. Maybe if students weren't forced to study them they'd be more willing to enjoy them and study them to a higher level.

I get a chance to meet Charles Clarke in the next few weeks so I might bring this up. (Although I have had to cancel my 'Tony is a war criminal' demonstration)

[Guy S.]

Quote

Maths should be optional at GCSE

Couldn't agree with you more! I have certainly never needed more Maths than I studied up to 14. Beyond that, my time would have been better spent doing something useful like learning Latin (had to wait for the Sixth Form for that) or working on my skateboarding (I was always rubbish).

Most of us, I imagine, get less than 10% curriculum time at GCSE and *still* manage to compare more than favourably with core subjects when it comes to results.

And yes, as a completely impartial observer, I would have to say that empirical studies confirm the supremacy of History as a subject over every other.

[Sarah BP]

Guy, can I just remind you of a comment made by a Head of Maths at your school when I was there: 'Maths is the umbrella which covers us all'!!!!!!!!!

[Richard Drew]

A few observations about maths GCSE:

~ They do tiered papers and in my experience the pupils are therefore not really stretched, most maths teachers play it safe and pitch them at a level they will do OK in

~ The maths coursework i have seen is far far far briefer and less stretching than history coursework


We have to teach pupils a combination of very detailed knowledge and understanding AND a variety of skills to succeed at GCSe. In maths it is simply skills being taught

I do not know anyone who would agree with the comment by Adrain Smith, sounds like a bit of spin to me

[JohnDClare]

The strategy for this is easy.
You simply tell the pupils to go home and ask their mother to tell them the last time she ever used algebra to help her run the household.
You will get a 100% return confirming that the last time their mothers used algebra was when they were made to study it at school.
When the Maths teacher comes into the lesson to complain, ask them when was the last time THEY used algebra to help them in their household. Watch them wriggle.

Basic arithmatic is essential. Anything else is just torture for the sake of it.

And don't believe all this cr.p about developing an understanding of pure logic. I have children who are going to get an A* at Maths who STILL can't explain HOW siezing the telephone exchange helped the Bolshevik coup d'etat in November 1917. History is a better vehicle for teaching logic.

Don't worry about discussing this with the Maths teacher in front of the children. You'll slaughter them easily - Maths teachers can't argue either (that's another transferable skill History does better).

And as they're leaving the room, ask them which they used to get out of the door - did they calculate the forces needed to depress the lever and withdraw the catch, or did they just do what they had learned to do in the past.

[Dafydd Humphreys]

Quality, John.

[Dan Lyndon]

JohnDClare, on Feb 25 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

You simply tell the pupils to go home and ask their mother to tell them the last time she ever used algebra to help her run the household.

And of course Maths teachers cannot use the skill of interpretation to understand that John D was of course not intending to reinforce gender stereotypes.

[Stephen Drew]

I am a bit split on this.

I am one of those rare people who truly loved every second of his Maths lessons at school, and actively looked forward to them. And I am never embaressed to say so.

However Maths has a really bad image in many parts of the country because students do too much of it and they cannot see the point. Ask your Maths teachers about what new ideas they are using to teach Maths, and it is all about making it relevant to today and real life.

9 period a fortnight is what is done by all Maths students at my school. Cut that in half for the lower and ordinary ability students and refocus them on something they really need extending in. Cut the curriculum in half for them, take out all the extended stuff and focus in on the core of useful and valuable stuff they will really need for later life.

However for the Maths nuts (like me) or the simply gifted, keep them at the highest level and teach them all the really hard stuff that they will need as they go on to jobs that require it.

And I also concur with what Richard says about tiered papers encouraging people to play safe. The same seems to happen in Geography in my experience. Enter them for the Foundation to ensure they get the Grade C. Totally understandable, but not really stretching of talents.

At the end I just want to say again that despite all of this I did and do love Maths. In fact of all the covers I ever get, Maths is up there with ICT, Science and RE as the ones I most enjoy teaching.

[Richard Drew]

Stephen Drew, on Feb 25 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

for the Maths nuts (like me) or the simply gifted

glad you make a distinction between these two groups of people



But seriously, a good point about making it relevant, my room is always used when i am free, usually for math lessonds.

the other day i went in to observe a smashing teacher at my school trying desperately to teach algebra to bottom set y11. he was talking about see-saws and all such things. what a waste for him and them.

ask them to calculate the price per text message of a mobile package that gives them 10 free texts per day on a £20 monthly contract, and then give them a variety of mobile packages to calculate the best deal and they'll love the maths!!!

[Guy S.]

My wife just pointed out to me that actually Charles Clarke doesn't know his 3Rs from his elbow!

[ROBBO15]

Cannot remember who said this BUT a famous quotation which I have on my door is "a page of HISTORY is worth more than a book of Mathematics".