[johnmayo]

Just a quick note to see if anyone has dabbled on this idea of looking at "What if " as a way to generate student thinking.

Have read some articles debunking its usefulness some referring it to the status as a parlour game. As this forum contains many users of games, anyone interested in sharing opinions on this.
I might look at creating an activity to tie in on this if it is worthwhile.

Any takers?

Thanks
John

[mikel]

My attitude to this is much the same as what my mother always used to say when confronted by a pointless, hypothetic question: "If the dog hadn't stopped to sh*t, it might have caught the rabbit..."

[MrsB]

Read Niall Fergusson "Virtual History" - it has an excellent introductory chapter about counterfactual history in general. In this he explores arguements for and against 'if' history. I think it's a great book and really well written with a sound academic basis.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2070330-1630826

Essentially it is a useful excercise if the alternatives considered were genuine real possibilities at the time. It becomes a 'parlour game' when alternatives are proposed that were not even on the cards!

I have tried it VERY SIMPLY with students as a way of helping them to evaluate the most/least important factors for an event. I get them to cover up a 'cause' and say things like would the event still have happened even if factor X wasn't there etc. Not quite counterfactual history is its truest sense but useful all the same.

mikel, on Sep 28 2005, 04:24 PM, said:

My attitude to this is much the same as what my mother always used to say when confronted by a pointless, hypothetic question: "If the dog hadn't stopped to sh*t, it might have caught the rabbit..."

I think this is too simplistic a way of viewing it . . . we ask 'what if' questions of history all the time - perhaps without realising it!

Was the rabbit not running too fast for the dog anyway? perhaps the sh*t had no impact on the the course of events . . .

[Roy Huggins]

I often use clips from the what if video series for teaching topics such as the Schieffen Plan. I've had some great debates in Yr 9 about the potential for a right wing backlash in France if they had lost the FWW.

You have to be craeful not to confuse weaker students.

Roy

[DAJ Belshaw]

I agree with Roy:

rhuggins, on Sep 28 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

You have to be careful not to confuse weaker students.

If you're talking about a class of motivated high-achievers, fair enough. If not then I'd leave it alone: pupils get confused enough with 'real' history without throwing the counterfactual lot into the bargain.

I should imagine it would work really well at AS/A2 however...

Doug

This post has been edited by DAJ Belshaw: 28 September 2005 - 05:22 PM

[MrsB]

DAJ Belshaw, on Sep 28 2005, 05:22 PM, said:

I should imagine it would work really well at AS/A2 however...

I've only ever brought it up with groups at this level

[Andrew Field]

I remember discussing this at a Uni seminar. The excellent professor made a very pertinent point - he found it difficult enough to remember the different interpretations of what really had happened, let alone bothering to consider 'what if' questions.

As with all teaching methods, I'm sure this method has great potential in some situations.

However, I'd take issue with the title 'counter-factual history'. Surely all history is 'counter-factual', or, at least interpretations where we lack the facts.

[johnmayo]

Sorry for the title but it is the most common reference that I have come across- Alternate History brings you towards the sci fi end of the market IMO

[Andrew Field]

johnmayo, on Sep 28 2005, 06:52 PM, said:

Sorry for the title but it is the most common reference that I have come across- Alternate History brings you towards the sci fi end of the market IMO

Hey - I wasn't complaining to you about your use of the title - more that fact that the title is used for this 'concept'. It needs a more appropriate 'official' name. Perhaps nistory or whatifithappenedory?

[Rachel Juckes]

Apologies for not being able to get the picture any smaller (have only just worked out how to put picture in, let alone play with the size of them!), but this picture inspired me to buy this book. Quite a scary prospect.

However, I've not read it as each time I've tried, it's just such alien content as you know that none of it actually happened. It's written as if it were fact, and it's only one person't ideas of what would have been fact IF something had been different.

Food for thought, but possible a bit too much to handle as food for lessons...?

Rachel.

[Roy Huggins]

To some extend all history is a fictional story. We weave a hierachy of facts for our students in just the same way that a fictional writer creates a story. The past is very much an illusion or trick of light and mirrors. No matter how objective we try to be we only see what we really want to see. The artistry of a good history teacher is tell a rip rousing story of sex, blood and gore that holds the attention of their students whilst trying to impart a sense of identity, morality and citizenship. The what if is a valid form of history as it allows students to consider alternatives and to value what 'actually' happened.

Tomorrow I shall try and weave an exciting story about Lord Liverpool and the Corn Laws! I've got some great stories on Castlereagh and Canning! Have you ever wonder where the saying 'Published and be dammed came from?'

This post has been edited by rhuggins: 28 September 2005 - 07:13 PM

[johnmayo]

Trying to come up with a topic for a college project which has to have an ICT component.

My tutor and I have kicked around this idea basically looking at the thinking skills involved in students engagement in Counterfactual/Alternate history using some ICT artefact. One influence is game design (like sim city, making history and Quandary) where it allows student control over the factors.


I welcome your 2c/2p so far.

[MrsB]

What I like about Niall Fergussons approach is that he isn't just going for "imaginary history" he is considering the real and likely possibilities at the time.

[JohnDClare]

johnmayo, on Sep 28 2005, 07:51 PM, said:

Trying to come up with a topic for a college project which has to have an ICT component.

My tutor and I have kicked around this idea basically looking at the thinking skills involved in students engagement in Counterfactual/Alternate history using some ICT artefact. One influence is game design (like sim city, making history and Quandary) where it allows student control over the factors.

I was involved in the development of counterfactual ICT games in the 1980s, and came across a lot of opposition to non-factual history.
Always thought it so much rubbish.
Whereas I can;t stand the 'made up' histories that are bcomeing vogue, I think the context in which you are proposing to use them is spot on.
I linked the idea to that of empathy - you put the child in a context (eg a village in a pre-Agricultural revolution village, Louis XVI on the eve of the revolution, etc) and invited them to 'play the part' of that person. They were presented with the same decision that that person had to make. But I then made them pay a 'price' for their decisions in the future - which affacted them (eg made them richer, or annoyed other people).
The key usually turned out to be to survive as long as possible.
You are right in that, by the end, the children had learned a lot about the different factors involved, and how they worked to affect the person.
Even more valuable, I found, was that it gave the pupils a great deal more respect for the individual and the difficulties they faced.
The key for me - as regard the opposition to the counterfactual thing - was to make sure that, if the pupils did everything the person did, the game variable worked in such a way that things turned out how they actually did.
I thought it was going to be the start of an exciting new way of teaching, in which ever-more-sophisticated models and simulations would allow the pupils to experience history and learn about the concomitant factors by trying different approaches.
But them some rotter brought in a thing called the national curriculum and 'empathy' became a dirty word and everything seemed to stop dead.
So go for it if you want to get it going again!

[Roy Huggins]

One of the best counter factual history programmes that I've come across is called the Battle of The Somme. Its an old programme which has been rewritten several times, but it allows students to play around with the variables that General Haig could control with the aim of reducing the number of casualties or even winning. The interesring lesson to learn from the software is that it was very hard to improve upon the tactics that he used baring in mind the technology, conditions and training of the recruits. Letting that dam mine off 10 minutes early was very silly, but how do you supply your men once they get across no man's land? The sane thing happened to the Germans in 1917. The resupply problem effectively stopped the Ludendorff offensive.

Roy