[MrJohnDClare]

I'm very happy to allow this topic for discusion, but I have to say, Emily, that I don;t agree with you.

Yes of course we make history - simply by existing/ doing things/ having chidren we affect the future - but only in the 'a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa can cause a hurricane in America way.
I suspect that very few, if any, human beings can make history in the 'make a difference'/'make significant history' sense.

Perhaps Pontius Pilate.

[MrJohnDClare]

Jellybean_Emily, on Apr 18 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

Dreams are part of us at any age, if someone believed something with their heart and soul and fought for that belief, even without success they would still be making a difference...

I am reminded of Prospero's comment in The Tempest: 'We are such stuff as dreams are made of, and our little life ends with a sleep'. But his comment was one of despair, surely - that all we have is dreams...

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People have come from nothing, to something, and why shouldn't that be me?

Absolutely, and I am sure you will make something wonderful of your life. But there is a big difference between you achieving something for yourself, and you changing history.
When I was younger, I used to go as a tent officer on a children's Christian camp every summer; I suppose I wanted to 'make a difference'. Every year, as the camp ended and those children returned to their (often very difficult) backgrounds, I was painfully aware that the permanent changes had been accomplished by them upon me, and not the other way around.

It's like a ouija board; if you talk to people who have done one, they all declare of a certainty that they did not try to make the glass move anywhere. The effect of a number of people all moving the glass was that no one person could control where that glass went - when they were all moving it together it 'had a mind of its own'. History is the same, I reckon - we are all trying to move it in a certain direction, but it has a 'mind of its own'. Thus, as far as individuals affecting history is concerned, an individual only APPEARS to affect History - they just happen to be pushing the right buttons in the right direction at the right time. The glass IS moving in the direction they are pushing, but they are not moving it - it is the general trend of society that it should so move.

For me, this explains prominence. A Hitler, a Margaret Thatcher, only comes to power because they mirror a desire in society; for a time they 'lead' that movement - but then society takes a different direction and they are destroyed.
The only way to avoid ending a political career in failure, it strikes me, is resignation or assassiation!

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i hold my hopes high and one day hope that i can change something for the better, that i can change the course of history, and even if i don't manage that then i can at least say i tried

Of course, that doesn't absolve people like you or me trying our very best to change society for the better - if there are enough of us then the glass WILL move.
However, I have to say in a sad kind of way that I do not believe that an individual can make the glass move against the general trend. (I wonder if someone like Stalin disproves me?)
History has mind of its own, and we are the driven, not the drivers.

Or perhaps I am just a tired old man, full of disillusion!

Oh, and btw: Delirious: History Maker

[MrJohnDClare]

I'm astonished at the depth and sophistication of your answer - I think I agree!

[MrJohnDClare]

I think that history creates people.

[Cyfer]

i don't think people create history, although they do affect it in some way or another....

[Cyfer]

Having not the time to read further statements other than the first one made I shall simply reply with a statement.


One day. I hope I'll be remembered for something. I'd love it to have something to do with science. I don't want to be famous like Einstein, or rich like Gates but I want to be known and admired, even if it is by a small group of people who can use what I contributed to contribute further.

~Cyf

[Daks]

i believe you can only MAKE history if you are textbook writer, you can live it and effect it but no one can MAKE it. the rest of my post will be more along the lines of disagreeing on where you stand not on the making of history. how can we get rid of all weapons? if we do that the world would simply be conquered by the on crazed person who didnt agree with your dream world and had a weaplon and went out and said join or die. reusable rescources? i do not disagree with the fact that we should use them, but this is more along the lines of strategical thinking "do i want my country's economy, transportation, and comfort to be in the hands of people who hate me?" and how will banning plastics help anyone? look at the computer you're using, there's plastic on it, look at your microwave.... oh wait that's plastic, your fridge (more likely than not) has plastic parts, and almost any sort of container you have is also plastic! instead of trying to fix things that aren't broken, how bout you try to change things like abortion? or knocking off the terrorist groups? or maye getting rid of (at least in the U.S.) the insanely good way criminals are treated! i'm not talking about making the conditions inhumane but in some federal prisons they have their own golf course! also people on life or deathrow get tv's and computers and generally live better than they probably did before they went to jail! i've run a bit long and i apologize but that's my two cents.

[MrJohnDClare]

Daks, on 01 April 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

i believe you can only MAKE history if you are textbook writer, you can live it and effect (sic) it but no one can MAKE it.

Hmmm.

You post starts well enough.
But it degenerated into a kind of mad rant in the middle.
And the less said about the end, the better. (I suspect your view on jails has been too-shaped by right-wing newspapers!)

The only bit I want to pick up on is this. If you can AFFECT history, surely that is 'making' it - if you are contributing to the creation of the present, surely you are making history, because today's present is tomorrow's history, and you helped make it?

I love the bit about history textbook writers! There is a famous saying that historians are more powerful than God - because God can't change the past, but historians can!
(Of course it is silly and blasphemous, actually - historians CAN'T change the past, only our present appreciation of it, but it is a fun saying for all that.)

[Daks]

yes im sorry that would have better been placed elsewhere, though i do not believe my views have been changed by any type of media (i dont read newspapers and avoid the news companies if i can help it). and i agree with the saying . historians have a bad habit of changing things when they write their works, and then you get whatever the textbook writers bias is on top of that, its rather annoying. somedays the internet is better than books which i find rather sad.