[Cyfer]

Hell i've got a riddle i cannot really solve.

I've heard various accounts of Tartars from my Polish relatives who still remember stories from when the Ukraine division of tartars invaded Poland, yet i cannot solve one question.

Genghis Khan specifically called his adversaries when he was a young boy and still in separated tribes from 'the north' the Tartars. The Tartars came from the cold lands, so that only leaves me with one option. Russia.

Yet there is no mention of Tartars in Russia.
There is a brief mention of Mongolian tartars that differed from the Caucasian ones yet than why did Genghis call them Tartars? He didn't call other tribesmen Tartars yet he specifically mentioned that each year in the winter they raided each others herds (since the Mongols never had a village or city).

Any answers? good sites?

~Cyfer/Cipher
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Down with wikipedia >_<

[MrJohnDClare]

omg - you DO ask questions I don;t know the answer to!

According to Encyclopaedia Britannica (which you would do well to read yourself - there will be a copy in your school library), I suspect the answer to your confusion is that (as was the case with many names from the peoplesof the past), the group to which the name 'tartar' was applied changed down the ages, so that a 'Tartar'was different at different periods in history.

The name first appeared in northeastern Mongolia in the 5th century AD in the area around Lake Baikal. They were distinguished from the Mongols because they spoke a 'Turkic' language (whatever that might be).

During the reign of Genghis Khan, groups of Tartars joined his armies, so that in the 13th century 'a fusion of Mongol and Turkic elements took place', and the Mongol invaders of Russia and Hungary were known as the 'Tartars'.

When the Mongol empire collapsed, the 'Tartars' became specifically those people who lived in the western parts of the Mongol empire. They converted to Islam, and when that state collapsed, they formed the basis of the Tartar khanates of Kazan and Astrakhan on the Volga River, Sibir in west Siberia (in all of which Tartar peoples still live) and the Crimea Khanate.

After 1945, the Tartars of the Crimea were accused by Stalin of helping the Nazis. They were deported to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, and forbidden to use their language or celebrate their culture.


That's the best I 'khan' do.
Bye bye - tar-tar.

[Cyfer]

MrJohnDClare, on Jun 15 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

omg - you DO ask questions I don;t know the answer to!

To the first point, i don't really ask questions that you do not know i have just read about that specific period and i know a bit about it, you could probably destroy me in a cromwell quiz 0_0

MrJohnDClare, on Jun 15 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

After 1945, the Tartars of the Crimea were accused by Stalin of helping the Nazis. They were deported to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, and forbidden to use their language or celebrate their culture.


That's the best I 'khan' do.
Bye bye - tar-tar.

Sounds just like the Pols, but didn't the Tartars rebel?

Yay for cringe worthy puns

[MrJohnDClare]

Cyfer, on Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

Sounds just like the Pols, but didn't the Tartars rebel?

Fascinating fraction here.

Which revolt do you mean - when? against whom?

[Cyfer]

MrJohnDClare, on Jun 16 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

Cyfer, on Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

Sounds just like the Pols, but didn't the Tartars rebel?

Fascinating fraction here.

Which revolt do you mean - when? against whom?

Oh, i wasn't referring to a certain rebellion, it was merely a question.

Now i'm truly confused. This text talks about how the Tartars used to be a faction in Poland but than separated to the Turkish side? This goes against all my grandparents, teachers, parents, parents friends etc etc have ever taught me, i think i'll research a bit more into this.

One problem. At this time the Polish were strictly Christian/Catholic. The text mentions the Tartars being allowed to build 'mosques'. Is this referring to the Muslim place of worship (as the Tartars might have been Muslim or is this just using that certain word to describe a holy building that's not a church?

If the Tartars were Muslim after all wouldn't they have come from the Middle East and therefore not had to have had to side with the Turkish during the rebellion since they were part of their group? So did they originate in Poland?

[MrJohnDClare]

Cyfer, on Jul 2 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

Now i'm truly confused. This text talks about how the Tartars used to be a faction in Poland but than separated to the Turkish side? This goes against all my grandparents, teachers, parents, parents friends etc etc have ever taught me, i think i'll research a bit more into this.

All this happened CENTURIES before your grandparents.
You need toestablish a timeline of what happened when, to give you a conceptual framework on which to 'hang' the different events.

Quote

One problem. At this time the Polish were strictly Christian/Catholic. The text mentions the Tartars being allowed to build 'mosques'. Is this referring to the Muslim place of worship (as the Tartars might have been Muslim or is this just using that certain word to describe a holy building that's not a church?

A mosque is a Muslim place of worship. Your timescales here are so muddled up that it is difficult to discuss this - again, you need to draw up a timeline for all these events.

Quote

If the Tartars were Muslim after all wouldn't they have come from the Middle East and therefore not had to have had to side with the Turkish during the rebellion since they were part of their group? So did they originate in Poland?

Ditto. This sentence is just a nonsense because the events you are concatenating occurred centuries apart.